Same Sex Marriage: Recipe For Failure

Crime, Education, Politics, Terrorism, Violence

Will future historians chronicle the rise and fall of America? Will historians debate the demise of the great constitutional republic? If so, I suspect a common theme in such demise will be the erosion of the constitution. Historians will discover that Marxism, or namesakes Liberalism or Socialism, will have destroyed another productive and successful society. The Democrat Party, hijacked by liberals, will have achieved this destruction by bastardizing the Constitution to placate the whims of intellectually and morally bankrupt liberals. Once the Constitution was morphed into a meaningless living-breathing document, the deterioration of American traditions and family followed.

While there are several causes of societal dysfunction, the homosexual’s assault on marriage is definitely a significant one. Intellectually vacant liberals are too shallow to understand the deeper implications that homosexual marriages has on our society. Marriage and family is the fabric of societal survival and abolishing traditional marriage will result in societal decay.

In April the Vermont legislature legalized homosexual marriage. It joined the ranks with Massachusetts, Connecticut and Iowa where liberal activist judges legalized same sex marriage by judicial edict and over the objection of a majority of citizens. And the assault on tradition and family continues.

Polygamists in Canada are using the same arguments the homosexual activists used to legalize their abnormal unions. In 2004, the Canadian Supreme Court legalized same sex marriage by substituting the words “one man and one woman” with “two persons”. Already a polygamy case is moving toward the Supreme Court. In Jan. 2008, Winston Blackmore, a fundamentalist Mormon, was charged with polygamy. Blackmore’s lawyer says he will base his defense on the changes made to Canadian law to allow same sex marriage. Since the law permits homosexual marriage, his multiple marriages should also be allowed.

Liberals and homosexuals who object to polygamy ignore it has been sanctioned by some successful societies and historic religions for thousands of years. Homosexual marriages haven’t! Also, polygamists are a larger minority and not limited to Mormons and Muslims. Christian polygamist claim they are following practices of prophets in the Old Testament. Secular polygamists claim they “are just wired to be not jealous” and need more than one person in their marriages. As evidenced in Sisterwives, a pro-polygamy website.

With time, the legalization of pedophilia will most likely follow. The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) is an organization that advocates abolishment of the age-of-consent, liberalization of laws against sexual relations between adult and minor males and “sexual freedom for all”. It is using the same methods to advance its agenda as homosexuals. It is the largest organization in the umbrella group International Pedophile and Child Emancipation (IPCE) and is not limited to males. Women’s Auxiliary of NAMBLA and the website “Butterfly Kisses” celebrate erotic relationships between women and young girls.

Remember, homosexuals began by decriminalizing sodomy. Pedophiles are trying to lower the age of consent which will decriminalize pedophilia. It can happen. Twenty years ago most did not believe same sex marriage could happen. The age of majority has been lowered so girls under the age of 18 can access abortions and the “morning after pill” without parental consent. Under California law (SB 777) school children as young as kindergarten receive sexual indoctrination on homosexuality, bisexuality, and trans-sexuality. Liberal judges and Obama’s justice department advocate the use of foreign law, even sharia law, when deciding some US cases. The Dutch Paedophile Emancipation Movement led to the Dutch enacting a liberal law permitting sex between an adult and a child as young as 12 if the child consents. Will liberal democrats use Dutch law to justify lowering the age of consent in the U.S. to 12 yrs?

These deviant groups must be encouraged by liberal activist claim same sex marriage is an “inalienable” right, protected against “discrimination” or have a mythical right to privacy. Advocates of polygamy and marriages between bisexuals, transsexuals, first level blood relatives, or whatever, can use the same arguments as homosexuals.

Homosexuals claim marriage is about “coupling”. If marriage is not an institution about children, family and the survival of society, what institution is? Re-defining marriage to accommodate same-sex couples would nullify traditions in culture and family. History has shown that when you erode the family unit illegitimacy, crime, poverty, moral decay and eventually the end of the society follows.

George A. Torres, Jr George Torres

37 Comments

  1. Poly Friend  •  May 5, 2009 @9:05 pm

    Please forgive my antagonistic tone, but hysterical and fact deficient rants such as this really rankle me….

    I imagine that had you been there when the womens suffrage and apartheid movements were around you would have been saying similar things to the followin:

    “Down with the black people and keep women under the yoke of oppression where they belong for neither is worthy of opinion or rights. Long live status quo! Long live status quo! Let not cultural advancement take place lest the world be torn asunder under hell-fire and brimstone!!!! The degradation of civilization as we know it is nigh. Doom! Doom! Dooooooooom!”

    This sort of short-sighted vitriol is what gives conservative religion and Republicans a bad name. Both have continuously opposed civil rights movements and have utilized irrational arguments and fear as facts to prove their emotionally charged and sensational statements, especially in the absence of a valid argument.

    Civil Rights Issue

    Same Sex Marriage and Plural Marriage all fall under consensual crimes. All are adults wishing to love and support each other, and the government is willing to punish them for that even though their familial structure can be as stable or even more so than a hetero/mono marriage. (Have you seen the divorce rate lately?)

    This is a civil rights issue about the consensual choice that adults make to love and support one another and the government cannot control that. It is happening and there is nothing wrong with it since no one is harmed, and they should be accorded the same rights for the exact same commitment as their hetero/mono counterparts.

    Slippery Slopes

    Your slippery slope argument towards the acceptance of pedophilia and first order relatives does not make a bit of sense either. You are trying to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (F.U.D.) to cloud the issue due to a lack of a valid argument. Poly/SSM is about a consensual and contractual arrangement, namely called marriage that monogamous heterosexual couples have.

    In no court of law is a child accepted as and adult or is able to engage in contractual arrangement (unless emancipated). Not only that, but due to the protection of a child’s physical and emotional well being will this never come to pass.

    Your other slippery slope argument towards the acceptance of first order relatives is similar to the above. These laws are in place to prevent genetic mutations as well as working with our natural tendencies toward mating outside the immediate familial unit, for much the same reason.

    On the same vein if you plan to use the slippery slope of ‘will lead to marrying dogs, cats, hamburgers, or houses’ type argument, I want you to show me where there is a precedent that allows any of these non-humans to consent a contractual agreement in the court of law.

    Final Words
    I reeeeeaaallly want to see your evidence to support this sensationalism and appeal to fear. Pretty please!?! =):

    History has shown that when you erode the family unit illegitimacy, crime, poverty, moral decay and eventually the end of the society follows.

    I will also add - how you tagged this is pretty sad as well - “Crime, Education, Politics, Terrorism, Violence

    Thank you for allowing comments on this article. =)

  2. Ljosdal Moffitt  •  May 6, 2009 @6:07 am

    Georgy, I will get back to you later…but for now you do not know your ancient history on homosextuality (I am not speaking of pedophilial or polygamous marriage). As always, when it comes to understanding historical social more’ s you are off the chart–way too much to the right! Self-righteous prig!

  3. Ljosdal Moffitt  •  May 6, 2009 @6:11 am

    Oh yes, my usual Post Script…pedophilial and homosexuality are too distinct concepts. One is not the same..many homophobes would like to blame it on gays and lesbians as harmful to children–how archaic! You have not been enlightened!

  4. Ljosdal Moffitt  •  May 6, 2009 @7:32 am

    I am going to take apart your essay paragraph by paragraph because you have an assinine argument that covers several issues: homosexuality is the bane to our current recession. Ridiculous. You fall into the category of the Blame Game. Someone must be causing the current economic strife, and you will lay it at the homosexual door. You are lame and pitiful.

    .. 1st paragraph: “MorallyvBrankrupt families.” You contribute this to the deteriation of family traditions because of the trend to accept homosexuality? Stupid correlation. Come on–you are in a marriage of convenience yourself. Please be specific on what current USAmerican family traditions are. What does the moral fiber or fiinancial dilemma have to do with of our community who is in financial trouble. How does it have to do being connected to homosexuality? You are not clear as to what is the cause of moral banckuptcy. Back in the 1970’s due to the 21% mortgage rate the economy was understood that too many people believed in that they could afford their homes. Homosexuality had nothing to do with this and in fact the poor economy ripped apart “traditional families “where both parents needed to work to pay the mortgage. We had a “latch-key” culture where children were coming home to an empty house to fend for her/himself. My late husband was a latch-key child. He did all right. I don’t blame the mortgage rate, but parents who wanted to buy bigger than they could afford such as what we are now doing here in 2008-2009–there are many unethical bankers/lenders willing to support such outrageous, (creative) unaffordable leanding. I personally could afford my new home, 3 years ago but my banker stuck me with a a balloon ARM- because I was newly widowed, supporting a daughter in university…I was still in grief but I came to understand it was a stupid financial contract and I got out of it and refinanced. Again. the trend toward accepting homosexuality did not enter the picture.
    It is late…next paragraph I will tear apart, Georgy.

  5. Ljosdal Moffitt  •  May 8, 2009 @1:06 am

    Right on, Poly Friend!

  6. Janey  •  May 8, 2009 @3:47 am

    I love you poly…..

    Jane Hacks

  7. Ross  •  May 8, 2009 @6:50 am

    George Torres, right on I completely agree with you. If you allow the holy sacrament of marriage to fall what will they want next.Also as you said whom will be wanting what next? Interesting seeing that the dictionary according to webster still states the word marriage is still…today…the uniting or joining of one MAN and one WOMAN as HUSBAND and WIFE. Although i do wander how much longer that will be for. One other thing, I believe this marxist administration is attempting to prevent the spreading of the gospel in churches across america (…freedom of speech and religion…well i guess not if you believe in the false christ allah and the book of true hate the Koran as our current President does…) by implementing a new law that will prevent pastors from talking of issues right out of the bible, of the immoralities…I mean the sin that homosexuality really is. I too believe that liberalism really is a disease that is crushing to the gears of a capitalistic, free market society of which we happen to live in. I believe it is time to hit that reset button and show these politicians and liberal socialist judges that the peoples votes count by showing them who has the power to remove them…indefinitely!

    “Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery.” –Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. (*) ME 1:193, Papers 1:125

    “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.” –Thomas Jefferson: his motto.

    “God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
    The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
    wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
    they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
    it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. …
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if it’s rulers are not
    warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
    resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
    to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
    in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
    time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
    It is its natural manure.” -Thomas Jefferson-

  8. George  •  May 8, 2009 @1:16 pm

    Poly Friend … if you are still around, I am not fear mongering… however I am concerned enough to raise questions…

    OK it’s a matter of civil rights for people only wanting to love each other. Re-read the article. My question to you is does civil rights refer to pedophiles, incestuous people, group marriages? They are people who just want to love each other. Where do you draw the line - or do you?

    20 yrs ago people did not believe homosexual marriage, believed it should be against the law or would ever occur; and look where we are now even though polls show at least 70-75% of Americans still don’t agree with it - yet a few activist judges have usurped the courts to dictate it? Should all of the other alternative life styles do the same? Which life style would you say is abnormal enough not to allow marriage?

    You want evidence of the role the destruction of family in causing civilization decay… try reading history. Check out the increase of out of wedlock pregnacies in Sweden where homosexual marriages are condoned… So, just because I don’t agree with the homosexual agenda I am what?

    By the way… the US House of Representatives just included pedophiles as a protected class in the current Hate Bill sent to the Senate… one of the first steps to legitimizing that perverted alternative life style seems to be occurring… what do you say to that Poly-

  9. Poly Friend  •  May 8, 2009 @3:32 pm

    Thanks! =)

  10. Poly Friend  •  May 8, 2009 @4:15 pm

    Ross, keep in mind that many that historically fled to the United States did so to get out from the oppressive yoke of the Catholic Church, who has burned at the stake those who dare to think or question their doctrine.

    If we were living in a Christian Theocracy where Christian law was the law of the land then your post might make a little bit of sense, even though I am pretty sure you have no idea what Thomas Jefferson is really talking about, lest you selective chose to forget that little separation of church and state thingy….

    My favorite phrase when talking about this topic is, and it is very important to remember:

    Keep your religion out of our government.

    Religion, spirituality, or aspirituality is a personal choice and our government is not really a personal choice. The government governs over all of us regardless of what our personal beliefs are. Unless you want to start a Conservative Christian Theocracy (and maybe you do) I would suggest keeping in mind that there are other religions out there and your religion is not the only choice, and to impose it on others is wrong and a violation of our Consitutional rights, and is a step back to the heretical days where thinking and questioning was a crime.

    If you base all laws off of conservative Christian morality you are automatically discriminating against other religions. Due to the nature of the topic. If you do not like it, you do not have to do it. You do not have to support it and you can teach your children likewise, but others have the option to do the exact opposite. Legalizing is does not mean that we are going to force you to participate or support it.

    Also remember that the frame of reference for much of what our beloved and talented Thomas Jefferson has said has to do with the vocal minority fighting for their rights against the oppressive Christian majority destroying free will and choice in the name of maintaining the status quo. Most of what you have quoted really supports civil rights movements such as this. =)

    I am not going to dignify the rest of your post with a real response, because I think you have really, really lost yourself and are irrationally responding to this topic.

  11. Shelly  •  May 8, 2009 @9:13 pm

    I think it is sad when so much hate and anger comes from those who are suppose to love one another, lead by example and witness to others in the name of the lord. But what else can one expect from ignorant drones who accept the controlling environment of their religious institution. Stop looking to your church and pastors to create our civil law!!
    These same individuals hide behind their protection of the Constitution (or their religious interpretation of the Constitution) but rarely argue the fact that there is supposed to be a separation between Church and State. According to the US Constitution all people should have equal treatment under the law, which means when marriage became a legal contract/agreement between two people, all people whether man/woman, man/man or woman/woman should be entitled to the same rights under the law.
    I am not arguing that “marriage” cannot be a sacred institution in a religious organization; in fact, I believe that each church should be able to decide who they will marry. However, this union should not be a legally binding contract; the State should not be involved in the church at all.
    In summary, marriage should be a union that takes place in the church and should only be recognized by the church until the couple applies for a civil union and all couples should be allowed to apply for a civil union. Stop clouding the issue with your religious rhetoric.
    Lastly, what gives you the right to decide who another person can love, I am sorry you have so much hate and poison swirling inside of you.

  12. Christine  •  May 8, 2009 @11:51 pm

    Mr. Torres, I think that you are on the right path although I do believe that if people want to live their life with someone of the same sex then that is their choice. It is not the choice I chose. Like you it also makes me wonder what will happen in the future and where our world is heading.

    Ross you said great things. I really like they way that you give such detailed examples.

  13. AJ  •  May 9, 2009 @2:39 pm

    Polly Friend, where have you been all this time? Mr.Torres et al needed someone like you to balance this conservatism stench. Moffit and Jerry cannot do it by themselves. You are like a breath of fresh air.

    AJ
    San Francisco

  14. Abby  •  May 9, 2009 @2:44 pm

    Shelly, when you said “Lastly, what gives you the right to decide who another person can love, I am sorry you have so much hate and poison swirling inside of you,” those could have been my sentiments exactly as you said them. I do not know who the young man is but I sense hatred and poison emanating from him. Thanks for taking a stand for society and the world.

    PS: you too, Polly Friend

    Abby
    Brisbane, Australia

  15. Danny Wheeler  •  May 9, 2009 @2:49 pm

    Ross and George. Do not be intimidated by those people; they are sickening and are bent on “stuffing” their lifestyles down our throats. I do not understand; they want us to accept their lifestyle but they cannot accept our way of thinking. So, they resort to name calling and other insults. They have their ideas and we have ours, yet we are the bad guys. I am totally against same sex marriage; show me where it is condoned in the bible and I will support it.

    Daniel Wheeler
    Rota, Spain

  16. Vicki  •  May 10, 2009 @12:05 am

    Denying gay couples the right to marry is a form of discrimination. America was not founded on the belief that we should suppress people because we disagree with their lifestyle; just the opposite. I am so thankful that the founding fathers of this country were not as closed minded and selfish as some of these people seem to be!

  17. Michelle R.  •  May 10, 2009 @4:57 am

    Why are you people hiding behind the GOD and the bible to support your argument? In my opinion, God will not fault you and send you to hell because your neighbor was gay, or lesbian.

  18. Ljosdal Moffitt  •  May 10, 2009 @5:26 am

    where is the ACLU in supported Miss California USA in supporting her stance on same sex marrirages? They have goofed up! This iss her is expression of freedom of speech.

  19. Poly Friend  •  May 10, 2009 @1:14 pm

    I am writing my responses now….

    I will post it in the next day or so.

  20. George  •  May 10, 2009 @11:59 pm

    Poly… you have some interesting views on history… what do you think of the “oppressive yoke” that resulted in the Salem witch hunts in New England (a modern bastion of liberalism) which happens to be here in America, or about the Puritans, Quakers, Amish… talk about oppressive religion what do you think of Islam?

    “If we were living in a Christian Theocracy where Christian law was the law of the land then your post might make a little bit of sense…” Geeze Poly where do you think our laws come from – it is based on Christian-Judea religion, the bible, Western tradition and the bible… and I an wondering if you actually understand what Thomas Jefferson was talking about. The founding fathers were opposed to the establishment of a “state” church like the Church of England – not the practicing of religion in government – the founding fathers began meetings with prayer, check out how many times the founding documents refer to God… That little church and state “thingy” is not in the US Constitution – ANYWHERE! It is a mythical clause created by a judicial activist Supreme Court justice just like there is not constitutional right to privacy or against discrimination, except before the court.

    “My favorite phrase when talking about this topic is, and it is very important to remember: Keep your religion out of our government…” Wrong Again! It is supposed to be “Keep Your Government out of Religion”

    “The government governs over all of us regardless of what our personal beliefs are…” what if their personal beliefs are pedophilia, subjugation of women, polygamy, communal marriage, etc.?

    “Unless you want to start a Conservative Christian Theocracy…” Personally I have never heard a conservative advocate this!! But what is being created is a judicial theocracy. Is that OK with you?

    And what do you say to the religion of environmentalist who impose their will on the majority of Americans? Have you noticed how damage these folks have done?

    “a step back to the heretical days where thinking and questioning was a crime…” And just what do you think the current “hate crimes” are?

    “Legalizing is does not mean that we are going to force you to participate or support it….” Excuse me, that is exactly what it does!

    Shelly & Abby… “Lastly, what gives you the right to decide who another person can love, I am sorry you have so much hate and poison swirling inside of you…” So let me get this right, if I or others don’t care about anyone’s revolting sexual practices, are talking about who “loves” who - but want “marriage” to be traditional and between 1 man and 1 woman – we are hateful and have “poison” swirling inside us? So, who is practicing “hate speech”?

    Vicki… “Denying gay couples the right to marry is a form of discrimination…” So then it is not OK with you to discriminate against polygamist and pedophilia? What alternative love styles would you discriminate against? I don’t think you have a clue what our founding fathers actually said about freedom and government! Poor thing, sounds like you were indoctrinated by liberal academia.

    Michelle… What??

  21. George  •  May 11, 2009 @12:41 am

    Shelly & Abby… what do you say about the Vitriol and Hatred being waged against Carrie Prejean by the so-called tolerant liberal and homosexual activist for simply expressing an opinion? Is hatred and poison swirling inside of them? Are they discriminating against her and people who happen to think marriage is between a man and a woman? Is it OK for liberals to discriminate against those who disagree with them?

  22. Norine  •  May 11, 2009 @8:49 am

    This is one of those subjects that everyone thinks the other person is full of hate, just because they don’t agree with someone’s life style.

    I have had some good friends who happen to be gay. Just because they are my friends does not mean I agree with their lifestyle. I totally believe that marriage is between one man and one woman. There is such a thing as “agreeing to disagree.”

    Wow, I am surprised by the attack on people who happen to go to church. Just because someone is religious and goes to church is no reason to call them an ignorant drone. Because we don’t agree with the gay life style doesn’t mean we are full of hate and anger.

  23. Poly Friend  •  May 11, 2009 @3:26 pm

    @George - Response I, Can you talk to your webmaster and have them install a mod to allow for subscriptions and preview of comments. That would really be great to allow for people to follow these discssions and/or continue to participate.

    I have already covered the pedophile, icest, and poly thing here:

    Slippery Slopes

    Your slippery slope argument towards the acceptance of pedophilia and first order relatives does not make a bit of sense either. You are trying to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (F.U.D.) to cloud the issue due to a lack of a valid argument. Poly/SSM is about a consensual and contractual arrangement, namely called marriage that monogamous heterosexual couples have.

    In no court of law is a child accepted as and adult or is able to engage in contractual arrangement (unless emancipated). Not only that, but due to the protection of a child’s physical and emotional well being will this never come to pass.

    Your other slippery slope argument towards the acceptance of first order relatives is similar to the above. These laws are in place to prevent genetic mutations as well as working with our natural tendencies toward mating outside the immediate familial unit, for much the same reason.

    On the same vein if you plan to use the slippery slope of ‘will lead to marrying dogs, cats, hamburgers, or houses’ type argument, I want you to show me where there is a precedent that allows any of these non-humans to consent a contractual agreement in the court of law.

    and more specifically - polygamy/polamory is also similarly a similar civil rights issue…. pretty much the same as SSM and should also be legalized. Now keep in mind there are serious issues with the contemporary implementations i.e. Mormon Fundemetalists, with which we have laws to protect against…. age of consent, statutory rape and so on. Polygamy is merely the state of having more than one spouse and that is it. It is the current societally acceptable and enforced implementations that are the issue.The Fundementalists have been ignored for too long and have been allowed such wrongs to gone undealt with, but now that is changing and the children, and hopefully women too, will all have a true choice. I can argue for poly all day and I will write a huge post on it some day soonish. =)

    Oh, and if you are going to say that poly is totally immoral and based are your conservative Christian values then you may want to think again. Please remember these important words:

    Keep your religion out of our government.

    Out-of-wedlock Children

    I am pretty sure you will not find any direct causation for same-sex marriage and out-of-wedlock children, your citing is pretty much coincidental. If you do I would really, really like to see the numbers that show SSM us the direct cause of out-of-wedlock children. What is wrong with out-of-wedlock children? Sure, it is better for the children to have more than one adult role model and person to support them, but is it better for the children to see parents who hate each other and spew vitriol and abuse all of the time. For the love of God man, think of the children!!!

    If you want a cause for out-of-wedlock children/divorce rate I will give you a few specifically from American history: If you check in America’s history you will find that following WWII and the women’s suffrage movement there was drastic upheaval in divorce and out-of-wedlock children. Why? Because the societal view of women and ‘their place’ changed drastically and they truly had a choice in life - they could be independent and not serve men.

    Independence and freedom are powerful things, and women siezed it and freed themselves from the subjugation of the yoke of conservative (and heavily Christian) morale values. If we followed your vein of thinking we should go back to outlawing womens suffrage, because that most assuredly cause a huge increase in divorce and out-of-wedlock children. =)

    Pedophiles as a Protected Class

    Well, the reason for Congress passing this would be that there are hate crimes committed against them. Hate crimes committed against anyone, whether you believe it justified or not, is not right. Two wrongs most certainly do not make a right. Are you saying that you condone violence against them and others for which hate crimes are committed, such as many non-Caucasians and gays? It sounds as if you codone these hate crimes? =O If you do, show me how that is logical and not all based on emotion and irrationality.

    @Ross

    Marriage can very much be a sacred institution, but in that form it is personal and religious in nature. Once you bring the government into it then it is a secular, and specifically non-religious in nature, especially as far as laws are concerned. This needs to be remembered and the foundation of our laws, not your conservative Christian views. Marriage as a distinctly secular institution is a contract which bestows upon the signees specific rights and previleges in taxation, medical concerns, inheritance, contracts, and children/custody (among others).

    Your irrational and highly emotional views incite hatred, bigotry, prejudice, fear and divisiveness, all of which, in humble opinion are distinctly anit-Christian, which teaches love, compassion, understanding, and mercy. Jesus’ last covenant, the ‘one rule to rule them all so to speak’, is to “love God with all you heart and soul, and love your neighbor as you love yourself” and what you are saying is very much against that in my view.

    @Danny

    There is no ’stuffing their lifestyles down your throats’. No one says that as soon as this law is passed that everyone now has to start to be gay. We are not asking any of you who do not support it to do anything, and it does not affect you in the slightest. We merely asking for equal rights for equal commitment.

    Your answer is an primary example of the problem that is infecting the United States as a whole. You unceasingly insist to impose your Christian morality on the US citizens, when, in fact, not all of us are Christian, and, as I mentioned before, there is that little separation of church and state thing. I have already covered that earlier, so please review it. (I cover more below) Also being able to separate your religious/personal views from your political is a very valuable skill.

    What the Bible says or not should have exactly nothing to do with the laws that we pass, since what is good for “Christians” and in their currently mainstream view, may explicitly be a violation of Hindu or Atheist (or whoever’s) beliefs. What matters is how the laws is from a purely human or civil rights standpoint - a religion agnostic point of view, if you will.

    @George - Repsonse II

    Salem Witch Trials

    These were definitely deplorable and can be chalked up to religious intoloerance, ignorance, and fear. “The devil is in her.” sort of response to that which they could not understand. There were horrible examples of the atrocities committed in the name of religious morality and the ignorance of the time. I woud like to think we have culturally evolved past that… for the most part (see hate crimes above).

    If you are going to purely attribute this to Quakers/Purtians/Amish I will have you ask yourself how active are they now at spreading and forcing their views on the rest of the world? They do not do so at all. They keep to themselves living quitely and peacably in their communities are hard working and conservative citizens who are currently models for religious tolerance and peace. History is important to learn from, but we must also take into account how things are today.

    A singlular moment or two in history an oppressive yoke makes not. Compare those few moments with the pervasive destruction wrought at the hand of Christian zealousness in the past and definitively today.

    Something else you will want to consider is that there are many Polyamorous Quakers too. =) … talk about open minded…

    Islam? Defintely oppressive. Forcing their views on all under their purview. Punishing any who teach any other views. Their culture is seems to be inherently oppressive and violent to women, especially if you check into Africa for some female genital mutilation, but then here is an very good example of the horrors that result if we allow religious based government legislation to be enacted.

    Seperation of Chuch and State Redoux

    Ummm…. The First Amendment to the Constittuion says otherwise..

    Conngress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…

    Our Constitution was almost never ratified due the fact that colonists were clamouring for a bill of rights, and more specifically a religious protection clause. James Madison had to come back from Europe to slap people around to let them know, most vehemently, that ‘Thomas Jefferson and I’ are working on amendments to the Constitution that will enact these protections. Just pass it and we will be working on it. Virginia, I think, was the last hold out and a bastion of Baptist or Evangelical, if I remember correctly.

    Many of our founding fathers were not specifically Christian. Many, especially Thomas Jefferson were devout Deists, as were many others, and some were Unitarians too. Thomas Jefferson found the supernatural moments in the Bible somewhat stilting and created the Jefferson Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_bible)

    The Constitution or the Declaration of Independence never bares the word God or Jesus and there are good reasons for that. Note that they use the word ‘creator’, which lends great credence to their Unitarian/Deist leanings, or, if you will, there strong desire to protect the government from religious interference and to protect the people from government condoned/sponsored religion. Now keep in mind, I will not say that there some of our Founding Fathers were not mainstream Christians (or Quakers, etc) as it were, because there most defintely were, but their collective work (and voice) shows tolerance and openness, as well as a distinct desire for religious protection on both sides of the wall.

    Some interesting facts: If I remember correctly, in an official capacity Washington only said the words ‘God’ or ‘Jesus’ twice in his administration, and also he attempted, each week, to attend a different church to show openess and acceptance of varying religious views.

    “Keep Your Government out of Religion”
    Hmmmmm…… I actually like that. I amend my statement as follows:

    “Keep your religion out of our governemnt and keep our government out of my religion.”

    I think that works well and makes both sides known =)

    Hmmm…… I think I have said enough for now. I need to rest my hands. =)

    Thank you for listening.

  24. Poly Friend  •  May 11, 2009 @3:51 pm

    I know it seems that I rail on conservative Christianity and might seem a bit biased against religion in general, and I am, but my primary reason is due all of the civil rights abuses and atrocities committed in its name.

    Religious organizations have done some great things and those totally rock, but religion is too often used as a tool for violence and oppression. This is not only a Christianity (or American) problem. It is a problem wherever there is an intolerant religious majority or a theocracy in charge.

    Just my humble opinion.

  25. Ross  •  May 12, 2009 @2:19 am

    Well done George, although it is not like I didn’t already know I was going to enlist such a response from these pelosi’s in training. See liberal propaganda reignes supreme, and unless what you say is “politically correct” and from their socialist mindset it will only be received with a supercharged, highly illogical, factually deficient, emotional response from the tint of their rose colored glasses. I mean it’s almost as bad a president who didn’t learn that Keynesian theory economics…or spending a country into oblivion…ohh and were not talking bush level deficits, we’re talking 4 times that by the end of that presidents term. WOW that’s right in four years their messiah will quadruple what bush did in his EIGHT YEARS!! Ha Ha…but that’s ok, according to them they learn from the ignorance, hate, greed and travesties of the past so as too lead with the right foot or decision going forward. AND JUST FOR THE RECORD…I love all people because that is god’s command for me…but i hate my sin and that of my brothers sin…I love the person but hate the sin. So yes, when an ever expanding and “morally oppressive politically correct” government tells me what i need to believe and accept, when it goes against my religion and stands to try and stamp it out…perhaps tyrannically by an ever growing and fascist simple minded army of liberals reading back their CNN talking points and spewing their poisonous hate onto what i believe all the while calling me full of hate and poison I cant help but laugh and reflect on their own hypocritical slander and turn the other cheek all the while being the better person.

  26. George  •  May 13, 2009 @3:31 am

    Poly Friend… it’s pretty clear you have been successfully indoctrinated by the far left academia…

    Slippery Slopes: you seem to lack an understanding of what a slippery slope is. A few examples:

    In the 70’s all but the few believed that homosexuals were a perverted sexual practice… sodomy WAS against the law & once decriminalized started the “slippery slope” to same sex marriage. Smoking was legal and accepted; liberal activist got smoking to restricted to the back of planes on cross country flights – a slippery slope – now not only are smokers prevented in public buildings but at some public outdoor events – in private businesses (property) and in their own cars and homes…

    “In no court of law is a child accepted as and adult or is able to engage in contractual arrangement (unless emancipated). Not only that, but due to the protection of a child’s physical and emotional well being will this never come to pass….” You mean like same sex marriage? The “slippery slope” is the age of consent is already decreasing from 18 to 16 depending on the topic? Planned Parenthood is able to give birth control to girls as young as 14 on school campuses without parental knowledge or consent… In reality it is already occurring and making your arguments irrelevant.

    I noticed you conveniently avoided the Dutch law regarding age of consent. Should those justices on the Supreme Court be allowed to merge Dutch law with US law?

    “On the same vein if you plan to use the slippery slope of ‘will lead to marrying dogs, cats, hamburgers, or houses’ type argument…” apparently you don’t recognize sarcasm either. :o

    polygamy/polamory is also similarly a similar civil rights issue…. pretty much the same as SSM and should also be legalized…. I Disagree !!

    “Oh, and if you are going to say that poly is totally immoral…” No just not traditional. But I could live with it if society accepted it by the vote and not by judicial edict. Homosexuality is immoral.

    Out-of-wedlock Children: “I am pretty sure you will not find any direct causation for same-sex marriage and out-of-wedlock children, your citing is pretty much coincidental…” actually I can. Sweden noted a correlation between condoning same sex marriage and a very significant increase in illegitimate children

    “If you do I would really, really like to see the numbers that show SSM us the direct cause of out-of-wedlock children. What is wrong with out-of-wedlock children?…” It has been proven to cause increases in poverty, crime, societal dysfunction and destruction – note the plethora of studies on what liberal welfare and illegitimacy has done to our black community. Your WWII analogy is lame. Serving men – right!

    “Pedophiles as a Protected Class” one of the biggest liberal lies and assaults on freedom there is !!!!!!

    The best you can do is liberal democrat talking points… super lame. :o
    I don’t happen to condone superfluous violence on any one. What is absolutely immoral and unconstitutional is saying that one victim is more important than another because of his color or gender of religion or sexual preferences… If I beat up or kill a queer I should be punished just the same as if I did the same to some regular guy. It matters not what I thought when I committed the crime. Only the action should be judged!!!! Hate Crimes = Government Thought Control.

    Liberals understand this is another “slippery slope”… soon hate crimes is not what you did but what you said… expressing hate against a “protected class” criticizing what makes them different – then it is criticizing government – it is controlling speech… ever heard of political correctness?

    These were definitely deplorable and can be chalked up to religious intoloerance, ignorance, and fear. “The devil is in her.” sort of response to that which they could not understand… Exactly… have you noticed the intolerance of homosexual activist and other liberal activist?

    “If you are going to purely attribute this to Quakers/Purtians/Amish I will have you ask yourself how active are they now at spreading and forcing their views on the rest of the world?…” I was speaking historically to make a point on religious oppression.

    Islam? Defintely oppressive… well at least you get it. This is a true religious theocracy - are Christian influences aren’t even close

    Seperation of Chuch and State Redoux…
    1st Amendment…. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;… Where does it mention, imply or refer to separation of Church and State there?

    Read the letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist in 1802. Then check your Webster’s for the definitions of “establishment” and condoning, practicing, etc… What the founding fathers were referring to was the Establishment of a National or Government church that forbids all others like the King of England did with the Church of England… not preventing the influences of religion in government – the influences of Christianity (including all the various factions) and Judaism is all through our laws, courts, traditions…

    The constitution was to limit government – not religion

    The Constitution or the Declaration of Independence never bares the word God… and what do think they meant by the word creator or inalienable rights? This is the 18th Century -

    “Keep Your Government out of Religion”… I prefer this one.

    “Keep your religion out of our governemnt and keep our government out of my religion.” – I don’t think this works well at all… for the reason stated above

    And your welcome… as far as the your question about the post – Lionel has it set up so that if you have communication or issue with a specific person you can write them at the vonfrederick address… we check those routinely

  27. Poly Friend  •  May 13, 2009 @4:28 pm

    The best you can do is spout conservative doctrine? Uber Lame! =O =P

    Smoking and Public Health

    I do not really want to get into this since it is off topic, but…

    Everyone has the right to enter a public space and not have their health damaged or to be free of concern that others are not going to engage in an activity that is hazardous to their own health. If people want to smoke and kill themselves slowly, OK - then go ahead and do it. It is your body, but I most definitely have the choice to not have mine despoiled if I choose not to while in public spaces. I have the right to not have a smokers lack of concern for their well being not forced upon my health.

    In both cases, homosexuality and smoking, this is all contributed advancement of human rights, and an increased knowledge in human sexuality and health. Cultural and scientific advancement is a great thing.

    Age of Consent for Sex

    I could not “conveniently” forget about something that I was not aware of. If I a correct there are some Sourthern states which also have a age of consent for sex at 16 earlier too (a href=”http://teenadvice.about.com/library/weekly/qanda/blageofconsentchart.htm”>Age of Consent Chart)

    Hmmmm…. My preference is to maintain the legal age of consent for sex at 18. I can see grounds for lowering it to 16, but then you have to realize that children in this age group are physiologically ready and able to have sex and reproduce. Evolutionary biology has this as so. Are they really ready psychologically and emotionally…. well, probably not. Is it in their best interests…. definitely not, but they are most likely going to doing so anyway, especially with their hormones as wacky as they are.

    Something that is key for this topic is Sexual Education. Our sexual education is pretty much non-existent or completely broken (abstinence only). Our educational system needs to be completely reformed to include comprehensive sexual education. Unitarian Universalists who teach sexuality tend to have fairly comprehensive sexuality education. Also as apart of that would be having birthcontrol and day after pills available. Our very sex negative culture has a very detrimental impact on this topic and promotes ingnorace and lack of communication instead of education.

    Planned parenthood giving birthcontrol to kids should not be allowed without parental permission. That I do not agree with, and this is something that can be corrected, especially with the appropirate amount of education on sexuality for children and parents.

    I will have to think about this some more. I do not have a definitive opinion about this yet. My primary concern when talking about this topic are those who are really young, perhaps 15 and younger. Those who bodies (more specifically) and minds are not at all ready for sex, and may be injured by interecourse. I need more research and time to discuss this topic in a more informed manner.

    Thank you for bringing it up and having me think about it more. =)

    My arguments are currently relevant, at least as far as I have qualified them a few sentences ago.

    Slippery Slope

    ‘will lead to marrying dogs, cats, hamburgers, or houses’

    Sarcasm? No, I do not think so. Far too many of you conservatives (shall I say conservative indoctrinated) consistently use this argument as a method of inciting fear to advance your cause for a lack of a valid and objective argument. If I had I not seen this ridiculous argument used all of the time, I might have merely scoffed at it, but it is used all of the time. Again a method of inciting Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt so as to cloud the issue with an emotional and irrational response in readers to cover for a objective argument against it.

    Polyamory/Polygamy

    I know you disagree for much the same reasons…. conservative religious views. You are attempting to legislate and enforce conservative Christian morality which is a violation of our Constitutional rights.

    It really depends on what you mean by traditional. It was not until Emperor Constantine’s convention to edit/put together the Bible and the Catholic Church’s desire to keep control of their property did monogamy start to heavily become the church’s doctrine.

    Polygamy has been found in almost every single culture all around the world and for various reasons. Christianity was founded on it (see Old Testament) and so were many other cultures/religious. Traditional is very much a convenient judgment and not historical fact. Monogamy is a rather new cultural invention and counter to our evolutionary and historical truths.

    Here are a few links that support this idea: and Stephanie Coontz: The Real Marriage Revolution and Historians say marriage traditions have been fluid. I have one other indepth and multipart link that I really wanted to put here, but I cannot find it. Grrrrr…. If I find it I will post it here.

    Our-Of-Wedlock Children

    Keep in mind that correlation is not causation. They may be related somehow, but you will be hard pressed to prove SSM to be the cause of it. If you can send me a link to your data I am happy to analyze it.

    Civil Unions for Same Sex Couples were legal a while ago in Sweden (1995) and Marriage only became legal in May of this year, so I am not sure how valid any of that data could possibly be, if you truly mean SSM and not civil unions. (Wikipedia article on SSM in Sweden)

    If, by your statement, you are truly meaning ‘SSM is condoned’ (as in a public opinion) and not that SSM is legalized I would be honestly quite confused and really, really want to see that source. I would be hard pressed to call any source that claimed that in a a country that ‘condones SSM’ all of this stuff happens as a direct cause. Public opinion and legal fact are quite different in force of effect, and showing how public opinion was the direct cause of these things would be highly subject.

    Condoning and legalizing are quite different issues. Please clairfy what you meant so I know. I have addressed both cases here already.

    My World War II facts are not given as an analogy. If you look up the reseach you will see it is directly relevant and applicable to the argument that you gave which was ‘an increase in out-of-wedlock children’.

    Separation of Church and State

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

    The specific words “Sepration of Church and State” are not said here. They are coined from a letter which Thomas Jefferson wrote as I think you noted earlier, but the intent is manifest in the words of the amendment.

    make no law respecting an establishment of religion - in other words - shall not pass laws that shall establish a state sponsored religion or to enforce specific religious morality by the hand of law onto the masses (I.e. not legislating religious morality).

    prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” - in other words - shall not prevent people from freely practicing their religious beliefs, and part of that would be not legislating religious morality, which by virtue would inhibit the free practice of religion by creating a religious underclass by giving a specific religious body the upper-hand by legislating its values, especially when said legislated values are contrary minority values.

    Creating a State Sponsored religion can be done directly as in Church of England or indirectly by legislating its morality. Each is equally a violation of the Constitution.

    Creator

    If separation of Church and State, and religious freedoms were not such a divisive issue in that time you might have a point. Thomas Jefferson won verses John Adams due to his stance on separation. Also, as I stated before many of our founding fathers were Unitarians, Universalists, and Deists (such as Thomas Jefferson himself). If they meant God they would most definitely said God, but they did not do so in an effort to ensure that Christianity was not legislated to allow for freedom of practice and a separation of government from religion and religion from government.

    Inalienable Rights

    The rights which we have as humans, as humanity as a whole, as we are created and exist regardless of your beliefs.

  28. Jan Sessions  •  May 13, 2009 @9:43 pm

    WooHoo…Polly Friend is kicking you all’s asses. It is about time someone with intelligence SHUT you guys up (which I thought would have never happenedd). You have finally met your match. Gooo Polly.

    Janet Sessions
    Alabama

  29. Poly Friend  •  May 13, 2009 @11:37 pm

    Here is a 3 part series to start with:Myth, Sexuality, and Culture

    Thanks again

  30. George  •  May 14, 2009 @4:06 am

    The best you can do is spout conservative doctrine? Uber Lame! =O =P —

    touché :o Good One Poly Friend…

    Smoking and Public Health
    “Everyone has the right to enter a public space and not have their health damaged or to be free of concern that others are not going to engage in an activity that is hazardous to their own health…” Smokers are an irritant – not a health hazard. Cite one credible medical study that has attributed second smoke to any disease. Smokers have the same rights to enter public buildings as persons wearing strong perfumes… by the way I don’t smoke.

    The point I was making with smoking was in regards to the slippery slope – freedoms being taken away like boiling a frog

    “In both cases, homosexuality and smoking, this is all contributed advancement of human rights and an increased knowledge in human sexuality and health…“ Nothing more than feel good psycho babble.

    Cultural and scientific advancement is a great thing… not always. Eugenics promoted by the American left in the 1920’s and 30’s was adopted by Hitler and taken to an extreme. The scientific Hoax of man made global warming is another combination of so-called scientific advancement and culture / nothing more that junk science combined with liberal culture.

    Age of Consent for Sex… I am just saying that if things continue on the current path (slippery slope) in 15-20 yrs (maybe sooner) the age of consent could be as low as 12 or 14yrs

    “Something that is key for this topic is Sexual Education. Our sexual education is pretty much non-existent or completely broken (abstinence only)…” This is absurd. There is a plethora of evidence of schools teaching sex even in elementary schools.

    “Our educational system needs to be completely reformed to include comprehensive sexual education… “ Do you mean like the California bill that was just passed that requires the teaching of perverted sexual activities to children as young a kindergarten – with out parental consent?

    “Planned Parenthood giving birth control to kids should not be allowed without parental permission…” I agree but it is happening and the liberal democrats, liberal activist judges and teachers unions are preventing it from being corrected.

    “conservative Christian morality which is a violation of our Constitutional rights…” I STRONGLY DISAGREE AND DO NOT ACCEPT YOUR PREMISE !!

    “Polygamy has been found in almost every single culture all around the world and for various reasons…” Agreed. I noted it in the article. I don’t necessarily agree with Polygamy but as I said I can live with it as long it is legitimized by the vote of the people and not by judicial edict.

    It seems like you have a problem with our nation being founded on Christian-Judea principles, are the bases of our laws and traditions.

    The Swedish study (I can’t find the cite) opined that the condoning of same sex coupling for the last ten years caused the increase in illegitimacy by 400% - the cause and effect was the resulting change in attitudes – I am sure there were more factors but I find the logic credible and valid.

    Separation of Church and State… Still not buying your premise!! You continue to add language that is not present and create fictional meanings to support what you “want” the constitution to say…

    The Establishment means exactly that… the establishment of Government Religion… praying before legislative sessions and football games and swearing on the Bible is NOT establishing a government religion…

    “In other words” are phrases used by liberal activist judges and liberals who don’t like what the constitution says and want to change the constitution to fit their whims.

  31. Poly Friend  •  May 14, 2009 @2:56 pm

    Separation of Church and State

    I am guessing that we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. =)

    Judicial Edict

    In general, I would agree with you, but we have the primary issue of the stranglehold that conservative Chrisitanity has on the unquestioning masses. Christianity may be the majority religion, but that does not mean that its morality is constitutional. I am thinking that your ‘judges who are imposing judicial edict’ are enforcing the fact the Christian morality isn’t necessarily Constitutional and you do not like it so much. Again this comes down to Separation of Church and State and I think we have already established where we stand on that issue. =)

    Smoking is Hazardous?
    Please tell me you are really joking? I am really, really afraid that you are not. =(

    The CDC, National Cancer Institute, and Philip Morrus have all weighed in on the topic. Now, I do realize that Phillip Morrus aggreed to publish the information due to, if I remember correctly, a class action lawsuit that the entire cigarette industry lost due to supressing the fact that they knew about the health risks inherent to smoking cigarettes. The negative health ramifcations have been known about since the late 1800’s but the public has ignored it.

    I am sure I can scare up some links about a plethora of class action lawsuits and other stuff, but I think these more than prove the point. A Google search will find more than enough evidence of all of this.

    Your willful ignorance is really scaring me here. Everyone has the right to an opinion, but come on, let us not blatantly ignore the facts here! =O

    Our inherent right to not have ourselves killed without our consent and desire in a public space (or anywhere for that matter) is an inalienable right to which smoking is a direct violation of. If you want to kill yourself then do it in private. I do not want to be an unwilling subject to your death plans.

    Feel Good Psycho-babble

    I am assuming that you would have used the same logic vs women’s suffrage and the abolishment of slavery as well. Both are very much civil rights advancements that the conservatives and religious fundementalists opposed and then opinied the rightousness and Biblical support of.

    I am not sure if am going to contradict myself here, but I do not have a problem with the United States’ begining being strongly rooted in conservative European Christianity. I have a problem with conservative Christianity being used a contemporary tool for opression, status quo maintenance, and for the support of hate crimes and prejudice.

    The following is pulled from something larger I have written:

    Morality

    Evolutionary psychologists bascially are out to define exacly what humanity is at its most base level. They look for the traits and characteristics that are similar to all humans regardless of culture, and some of this encompasses moral values.

    Some would say that morality is given to us by our religion. I will say that religion will offer a cultural/religion specific implementation for base evolutionary morality that oft times is colored or stained by current cultural values and biases. There are too many moral commonalities between dissimilar religions and cultures for religion to be the sole peddler of morality to humanity.

    Sociocultural Values

    The sociocultural values of the United States have been continuously evolving as we gain a better understanding of morality, ethics, and our humanity. Our values are strongly rooted in the conservative European Christian tradition which tends to be quite closed minded and opposes change in sociocultural values especially when it undermines current church teachings. Change is always a bad thing under their purview.

    Most every civil rights movement is championed by a vocal minority and definitively opposed by the conservative religious (and Christian) majority. People have fled from the oppressive and stagnant yoke of theocratic rule to the United States all throughout history. Conservative religions promote maintenance of the status quo resulting in stagnancy and punishing the thinking man who questions the unquestionable religious majority, often to their detriment.

    The United States has worked through such civil rights movements such as slavery, women’s suffrage, and interracial marriage all of which have been opposed by conservative religions in one form or another, and decried as the downfall of civilization as we know it, but it has come to pass to the betterment of society as a whole, and our world has not fallen into chaos and brimstone and they have portend.

    Our morality and sociocultural values continue to evolve and change with our understanding and exploration of our humanity and our spirituality (or lack thereof), and will continue to do so. Some will champion these causes and some will oppose them. This is the way that it is, but still civil rights keep moving imminently forward, advancing our knowledge of our values and our humanity. Hell, even the Bible had changing and evolving laws and standards.

    Nazis
    Please do not use the extreme that anything related to Nazis to exemplify any sort of “advancement”. The Nazi’s are at best an outlier and a good example of extremism taken to the extreme and has nothing to do with cultural advancement in the context that we are talking about.

    Age of Consent and Sexual Education
    I am afraid of the same thing. 12-14 is not a good thing, but I do not think that this will come to pass for biological reasons. I can see a case for 16-17 year olds, but that is about it. I need to do more thinking and research about this before I can have a informed opinion.

    Yes, there is “sexual education” being taught, but it is being taught in way that is distinctly sex negative and is quite pervasive in our society where Conservative Christians have too strong of a foothold. Sex Education needs to be taught in a sex positive way so that we are not ashamed of our sexuality and know how to be responsible for it.

    I am assuming that these are the California laws that you are referring to. In essence I am OK with all of it. I would also like to see Evolutionary Psychology being taught as well as a Comparative Religion class or 2. These are tools that, in time, will reduce hate crimes and increase tolerance and understanding… helping to remove ignorance and to make religion a choice instead of having conservative Christianity stuffed down their necks. Knowing that their religion is a choice and that there are many different choices is an empowering and freeing thing to experience. Making religion a your religion a choice and not having it decided for you is a wonderful thing. I was brought up Methodist and have found that Unitarian Universalism is a better fit for my true beliefs, which are partly Christian in nature.

    Teaching tolerance and the wide diversity that humans are born in is not a bad thing. our diversity is a biological fact and to ignore it is a severe diservice and detriment to our humanity.

    This is also pulled from something larger I have written which address sex negativity in America:

    Create A Sex Positive Culture Through Training and Public Education

    America has a negative opinion of sex and all things sexual. The attitude towards sex and engaging in it is distinctly negative and not something to talk about. Because people are positively having sex does not mean that society’s attitude is positive towards it.

    Currently, cheating on your partner is significanly more socially acceptable than an open and honest polyamorous relationship. Sex negativity is a pervasive American attitude and our laws most assuredly support that.

    We are not teaching our children responsiblity in sexual matters or even relationships skills, and part of that is because of the negative attitude we have towards sex and fear of intimacy or inadequacy, or perhaps even inadequate positive role models.

    It is a difficult topic to talk to our children about, and many parents have no idea or are ashamed to broach to subject with them. Our schools still teach abstinence or nothing at all, and we do not have good curriculum in place to help children to cope with their raging hormones and all of their questions, rumors, and insecurities about their changing bodies and feelings.

    Teaching sexual education in a positive and healthy light that embraces their sexuality will help to change people’s attitudes towards it. Our sexuality is a beautiful thing and not something to be ashamed of. Many Unitarian Univeraslist congregations have great sex education curriculum. Perhaps their work is a good starting point for this.

  32. Poly Friend  •  May 14, 2009 @3:49 pm

    I just came upon this by chance, which was strange, but this book ‘Gay Marriage: for Better or for Worse?: What We’ve Learned from the Evidence‘ is quite applicable to your Sweden thoughts. I have not read it yet, but I am thinking that it will be quite telling.

  33. Poly Friend  •  May 15, 2009 @2:37 pm

    I am beginning to get worried that you are not going to respond, George.

    =(

  34. George  •  May 17, 2009 @5:46 am

    on vacation - may not have much to say but will get to it :o

  35. George  •  May 18, 2009 @8:38 pm

    Poly Friend…
    Separation of Church & State – of course, because the facts support my view

    Judicial edict… yes we do disagree – I do not accept your premise

    Smoking… I am serious. I asked you to cite one credible study that establishes that 2nd hand smoke caused any disease. You give me general web cites. I know the health hazards of smoking but you have been so successfully indoctrinated you missed the point and fail to understand the deeper issue of individual and property rights vs. government control.

    Feel Good Psycho-babble – no just your interpretation of civil rights; you have revealed your true colors as a well intentioned liberal with pie in the sky goals and a lack of real world experiences. History has proven time and time again Marxism and its name sake liberalism is a severely flawed ideology… liberals continuously ignore the disastrous consequences of their feel good intentions… As Mark Twain noted: Young people of liberal persuasion show they have heart – those over 40 show they have no brains. I strongly agree!

    Nazis… you could not be more mistaken. Nazi’s were not “outliers” and were not extreme until they gained absolute control. Nazism is just as relevant today as it was in the 30’s - only by other idelogical names and different dictators. In many ways Obama is behaving just like Hitler did in the early years. Check your history. The ideology is right out of the (US) socialist play book from the 1920’s (research eugenics). Remember Nazi is short for (Na)tionalso(zi)alistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. It was the German Socialist Party – not conservative party. Research the ideologies and you will find significant commonality between Marxism, Socialism, Liberalism and Fascism and that are all completely opposite than conservatism. And it has everything to do with what I am talking about – the slowly taking away of individual rights by government… you obviously don’t recognize it or don’t understand it

    Age of Consent – we agree in part. But I submit it can happen and it IS occurring. In the same slow – boiling a frog manner – that homosexuals are using the courts and schools to force feed acceptance of their perverted life styles; that people are not allowed to smoke in their cars or homes; that people are being told what they can or can not build on their own private property; parents are not allowed to choose what their children can or can not be taught in school… on and on

    “Create A Sex Positive Culture Through Training and Public Education…” It’s NOT the schools or public educations job !!!!

    I find your ability to debate better than most liberals on this blog. You reveal an education and ability to accurately regurgitate the propaganda. You definitely exhibit the potential for independent thought, but sadly there is a lack to expand thought beyond the indoctrination of liberalism. I am guessing you are young and not too long out of college – or still in one of the fine indoctrination centers. Like I said – it is a guess. I find that I don’t accept many of your premises or your world views or your agnostic bias – but enjoy the debates !!! :o

    This will be my last response… If you respond I will read it but not answer. If you choose to continue the lively banter, I post an article every other week and this is my week. We can continue the combative dialogue as I hope this week’s blog will provoke thought…

  36. Poly Friend  •  May 22, 2009 @3:07 pm

    I will respond but, it is going to take me a little while. My life has gotten a bit busy as of late.

    Thanks for the debate. =)

  37. Poly Friend  •  Jun 24, 2009 @3:25 pm

    My Background
    I am a 35 year old male who has traveled to quite a few countries, and is married to a beautiful European. We own our home and have a daughter on the way. I was raised by Methodist Republicans in a small mid-west town. I was in the Navy for 6 years via the Nuclear Power Program during Desert Storm. I am, also, a computer professional having graduated from a technical college, and I currently work for the government.

    Final Response

    My bias is not agnostic, it simply values separation church and state and not legislating religious values onto the masses. =) I find your ability to regurgitate conservative propaganda impressive, and I am betting that you have been indoctrinated, and been educated, at one of our fine conservative institutions. This is strangely applicable when turned around. =) =P

    Your rejection or lack of agreement with my arguments does not make my arguments incorrect, especially when there is significant logical evidence supporting me.

    I am not going to really address most of your last, since evidence, and authoratative and professional institutions do not seem to be so credible to you. =( If you are willing to dismiss out-of-hand the CDC and the NCI, as well as the plethora of lawsuits lost by the tobacco companies, then whatever evidence I bring forth, regardless of the topic, is not really going to matter. You have already made up your mind regardless of the evidence, which really saddens me, especially since this sort of “logic”is evident in many of your arguments (and many conservatives for that matter). =(

    You have not mentioned the ‘individual and property rights vs. government control’ issue. You have just now brought that issue up when you started with the health hazards associated with smoking. You keep changing the argument so you do not have to come up with a true rebuttal. =(

    I have addressed the ‘individual and property rights vs. government control’ thing a little bit in previous posts. I have the right to not be killed by others. I expect the government to protect me from the lack of concern of others, especially when I am in the public space. Uggghh!

    The last thing I will comment on is this “Create A Sex Positive Culture Through Training and Public Education…” It’s NOT the schools or public educations job !!!!

    It is also not their job to enforce a sex negative culture or indoctrinate the public into a specific religion, which is what they are currently doing and have been doing for a long time. Conservative Christianity is the oppressive force de juer. This has come about primarily due to having strong Catholic and conservative Christian morality being legislated regardless of the civil rights violations entailed. Lets take a gander down in Texas and see what they are doing with Creationism and schools? Imposing Conservative Religious Morality onto the masses and violating their freedom of religious choice seems to be more important than their civil rights. Perhaps the best thing that can be done in schools today to help combat this is to teach a Comparative Religion class.

    People should be allowed to live free and be themselves as long as no one is harmed. Homosexuality does not harm you or anyone else for that matter.

    Thanks for the debate. =)

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